Whatever you do, don’t hold a private home bible study in San Diego County. It could cost you big time. That’s what a local Pastor and his wife have found out, the hard way. The couple claims they were questioned by a county official who asked, “Do you have a regular meeting in your home?”, ‘Do you say amen?’, ‘Do you pray?’, ‘Do you say praise the Lord?’.
Did Jesus Get a Permit?
According to San Diego County officials if you answered yes to any of those questions than your little home bible study is a church, and subject to fines under “unlawful use of land” laws. The couple, Pastor Dave Jones and his wife Mary, claim only 15 people attend their meetings.
Dean Broyles, the couples attorney, says that under these guidelines, the county would have to fine anyone meeting in a home for various events; poker night, football games, or Tupperware parties. The couple plan to deliver to the county officials a letter stating that their first amendment rights under the Constitution have been violated.
For you liberals out there who think that the first amendment is only talking about free speech, it also mentions something about freedom of assembly and religion. This pastor and his wife, along with the group of 15 who meet are clearly having their right to peaceably assemble and practice their religion violated. And don’t use the “This is a church” argument with me either.
“For churches and religious assemblies there’s big parking concerns, there’s environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced,” said Broyles.
The San Diego County officials are asking that the couple obtain a “major use permit”, essentially conceding to the county that they are running a church out of their home; as well as costing them thousands of dollars. Therein could lie the whole point for the ridiculous behavior by the county. If the county refuses to release the couple from having to obtain the permit, this case will likely end up in federal court.
Update: 5/30/2009-San Diego County Backs Off
I suppose enough of “We the people” complained to San Diego County officials. They have now officially backed off from requiring Pastor Jones and his wife to obtain a permit for their bible study. This is an excerpt from Sign on San Diego:
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county’s general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don’t need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”
Wallar said that definition, which doesn’t spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
San Diego Bible Study Video
May 30th, 2009 at 6:51 am
Isn’t this a fine mess. While the county is looking at their rules about permits maybe they should eliminate all required permits for religious meetings. The Constitution allows for free assembly and practice of religion. No where does it give the government the right to restrict this through the use of “Permits”. This is regulation and restriction of our first amendement rights. STOP over regulation!
May 30th, 2009 at 7:07 am
This is really good news. As with any good neighbor, the Pastor is probably instructing his guests to not block driveways, etc. Not only is the government and the courts positioning themselves to take our property, until they can “take” it, they may try to restrict it.
The real issue here are the questions the pastor was asked.
May 30th, 2009 at 8:36 am
I rank the idiots that did this intrusive and bullying crap right up there with the devil and pedophiles.
Maybe we need a TV show called “Extreme Ridiculosity”….then again, all the shows would be about California.
May 30th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Would it be better if he just said he was having a birthday party every Tuesday?
May 30th, 2009 at 10:24 am
This was a failure of a pastor to make peace with his neighbor. Nothing more.
May 30th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I guess if you were the next door neighbor and there was a hollaring hootany of a service going on it would be annoying especially with all the cars, doors slamming, kids crying in the driveway, and traffic. And it may not be your style of religion. Is religion immune from neighborhood covenents? Isn’t this what government does is level the playing field? Its funny but look at it one way its big government, look at it another way its a terribly disrespectful neighbor. Clearly if the minister owns a farm with acreage no problem till babies are being born in the parking lot, and then who knows you have another Jonestown on the way. Just how many people can you crowd into a house before the exits and bathrooms are inadequate? How many cars can you park around a house before you take your neighbors parking spot? Even among Protestants one demonimation may not be able to stand another. There are legitamate public issues here.
May 30th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Thats alotta “ifs” Brian.
So, once a week these folks get together for a bible study. I dont know about you but most bible studdies I’ve attended were pretty damn quiet.
Its private property and they have the right to assemble peacefully. If they’re on “public property” thats when you need a permit.
Who cares how many people are there and if their exits are properly marked , firemarshall approval etc…
What ? You wanna patrol everyones house on every holiday also to make sure they’re up to code ?
The only public issue is how much revenue the city gains from robbing the public. And the only playing field they want to level is the one made of greenbacks.
But its stupid because the expeditures outweigh the revenues in the long run if they go with this asinine enforcement.
May 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Now, we all know that Bible study is just a euphemism for a bunch of control freak right wing nuts sitting around molesting their kids.
This “story” is only important to people who see nothing good in the world and work tirelessly through their various child-molester-of-the-month Christian churches to destroy the earth and somehow convincing the rabble that it’s all “Love.”
I say run every single snot-dripping, meddlesome Christian activist right wing nut out of town.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:47 am
This is good news. Just as I said on comment #7 of the original post, this not a left vs right thing, it was just one person or maybe two being idiots.
@Brian: the concerns you raise have to do with defining capacity and frequency and have nothing to do with religion. Even then, it should only come down to “disturbing the peace”, like a keg party might. We don’t need government telling me how many people can come over and watch Monday Night Football at my house. But if the neighbors are complaining about excessive noise, then it’s a problem.
@Gustav: obviously you are a blog troll and are fishing with flame bait
May 31st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I am simply pointing out, just because its a religious meeting, doesn’t mean it can’t be a pain in the butt to the neighbors if its not carefully done. Some “religious” types feel that this somehow makes them immune to the “possibility” they are taking advantage of others in a housing neighborhood where people live, eat, sleep, and play. There is a lot to say to haveing a meeting in a church or other meeting hall, with adequate parking, plumbing, fire extingusihers, and punch bowls.
May 31st, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Its private property Brian.
They can do what they want as long as no one is being harmed and laws are obeyed.
The parking spaces you cry about being taken are public parking spaces. If they’re metered thats all the better for the city, if they’re not, first come first serve. Walk.
Like was said, it shouldnt matter if its beer of God being studied, its private property.
“I am simply pointing out, just because its a religious meeting, doesn’t mean it can’t be a pain in the butt to the neighbors if its not carefully done.”
This applies to just about any function on private property in a residential neighborhood.
For some reason you seem to want to single out religion. Your contempt is all too obvious.
Gustav, I say slap you in the head and then say a prayer for you.
May 31st, 2009 at 4:22 pm
@Brian: damn you for making me agree with Micky
June 1st, 2009 at 8:36 am
Dont feel bad Rob.
Most of us from different ends up the spectrum tend to agree when it comes to disagreeing with Brian.
Were all very special, but in the end not all that different.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:04 am
@Brian: If the folks are disturbing the peace, or parking illegally, or whatever else, it is those infractions that they should be charged with. A religious gathering is not inherently disruptive, and is explicitly protected by the Constitution. Your characterization of this incident as possible neighborly misconduct is entirely plausible, but a religious gathering is not the root of the problem.
While the county is looking at their rules about permits maybe they should eliminate all required permits for religious meetings.
I totally agree Thomas. Of course, on the flip side, we should also stop effectively subsidizing certain religious organizations with tax-exempt status, eminent domain land acquisitions, and other acts of official preference for one religion over another.
Don’t hurt them, don’t help them. Let the churches do their thing. Simple as that.
June 3rd, 2009 at 7:45 am
If I understand it right it wasn’t a neighbor who complaind about the issue. It was someone visiting a neighbor.
I want to know what there doing about the guy a block over who has about 15 people over everytime the Padres play. Or the guy who every Sunday has 15 people over to watch the Chargers play. Do they get cited and have to pay for a permit also?
June 7th, 2009 at 11:20 am
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