So today, on Meet the Press, SecDef Panetta admitted, while trying not to, that some of the information gleaned from the controversial tactic known as water boarding ultimately led the US to bin Laden.
The real story was that in order to put the puzzle of intelligence together that led us to Bin Laden, there were a lot of pieces out there that were a part of that puzzle. Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. But the fact is we put together most of that intelligence without having to resort to that.
But the death of bin Laden was only an incidental benefit. The real benefit gained from water boarding in those early months after 9/11 rocked the country was it allowed the US to shape a rapid and effective response to a network that had been growing more powerful and dangerous than most knew.
People point the finger at Clinton or Bush in an attempt to blame someone for the series of intelligence failures leading to 9/11. President Clinton ignored the issue for the most part (except for one minor attempt to take out bin Laden), President Bush assigned in a lower priority in the early months of his administration, and the American people expressed almost no interest at all. All that is because it wasn’t really an issue until it became one.
This is how democracies tend to work. The business of most democracies is life or business. In the US we love our men and women in the military and hold them in high regard. At the same time, we would rather not have a military at all. Wars are bad for life and bad for business. We keep a military because we know that to not have one is far more dangerous.
So, while we often get involved in minor squabbles throughout the world, we stubbornly avoid major conflicts. So, while the US had been combating terrorists for decades at a lower, mainly hidden, level, major actions had not been taken. Until 9/11 slapped us in the face and we realized suddenly and as a nation how completely unprepared we were for this conflict.
Of course, the most pressure fell squarely on the shoulders of a president who in many ways was still getting settled in his new role. In one moment all of the president’s priorities changed and he knew that his legacy would be about one thing, preventing another such devastating attack.
The first most crucial element was to gain intelligence. It’s one thing to confront a powerful army with ships and planes and soldiers; quite another to deal with a well-financed army, hidden among societies all across the planet. An army that was organized into smaller cells whose main purpose was to cause chaos and death wherever possible. It’s a structure and a system with many advantages and few weaknesses.
But the one weakness is that, if someone at a high enough level could be made to give up what they knew, it could be used quietly and effectively to counter terrorist networks everywhere. And while there is much speculation on my part regarding the ultimate plan implemented by the Bush Administration, it seems quite clear from actions taken that the idea was to deliver multiple blows to terrorist networks in multiple ways and locations.
So, while the military allied itself with Afghan resistance fighters in the overthrow of the Taliban, our intelligence services went to work capturing and interrogating high-level operatives. It seems likely there was a desire to respond both rapidly and with great force. But how to gain intelligence from prisoners who look upon death for their cause as something to be sought after? For this unique challenge came unique solutions, one of which was water boarding.
Not that this was something implemented on a whim. The Bush Administration was advised of possible options and considered each carefully. With water boarding, as with all suggested “enhanced” interrogation techniques, there were extensive discussion and reviews. Finally, water boarding was chosen as part of the enhanced interrogation tactics and, in the opinion of this blogger, the decision was a good one.
We knew a great deal about water boarding and how to do it effectively for very good reason, it was something we did regularly to members of the military going through what is known as SERE Training (survival, evasion, resistance, escape). A close friend of mine went through SERE school and advised me that water boarding was not the worst of what he had been made to endure there.
But the main goal of water boarding was not to capture bin Laden, it was to ensure that future recurrences of we experienced on 9/11 would not materialize. In this the Bush Administration succeeded spectacularly well, much to the chagrin of political opponents. But liberals opposed water boarding more because it was administered by a man they tend to hate than because of ideological issues. But had the president failed to prevent another major terrorist attack, they would have been even quicker to condemn him as incompetent.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Fortunately for all of us, the President did the right thing, not the politically expedient thing.









February 3rd, 2013 at 2:19 pm
All this attention by sissy liberals over CIA techniques. Let the professionals keep us safe and retire to your local starbucks and faculty lounges where you can wring your hands about evil America.
February 3rd, 2013 at 2:54 pm
I find it interesting that Khalid Sheik Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times.
You would think an “enhanced interrogation technique” (I think it used to be called torture) would work the first, oh, ten or twenty or even thirty times.
183 times? It is either ineffective or he survived it like no other human.
Even John McCain, who argues vociferously against torture (and offers that the most ardent proponents never “served”), admits that he supplied information beyond name, rank and serial number (although he says it was information that was of no use to the Viet Cong) after a couple of days.
So John McCain lasts a couple of days and Khalid Sheik Mohammed survives this brand of torture 183 times?
I would tend to agree with those (including, McCain) that Khalid Sheik Mohammed provided faulty information regarding the location of the courier. If this specific brand of torture does not work the first 120 times, I doubt that it worked after number 183.
I do believe that information was gleaned from others, but there seems to be a lot of revisionist history involved.
I do remember my Father (a WWII veteran) being so proud that we didn’t engage in such things as the Bataan Death March. We now have entered a pre-emptive war and engaged in torture. History will judge the integrity of these actions.
Lastly, the idea that people were against torture because it was implemented under Bush is a reach. The act itself is what many people reject, not who oversaw the implementation.
February 3rd, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Hey Buzz.
Its a fact that Khalids torture gave valuable info.
We still perform renditions by suspiciously and inadvertently somehow letting suspects end up in the hands of anyone who’ll torture them for info.
Even the Egyptians.
Wise up.
Waterboarding used for interrogation is about as relative as assault rifles are to the murder rate.
Ass holes better hope I never get a hold of one of them.
They’ll tell me exactly how many times in their life they jacked off and whos goat they were thinking of at the time.
They’ll be begging me make em think they’re drowning.
Whats Obamas technique ?
Put out a handbook explaining just how far our interrogators are allowed to go.
Thats about as stupid as it gets
February 4th, 2013 at 6:28 am
Suits me fine if we were still waterboarding KSM today. Although a little rope about his neck would look lovelier!
February 4th, 2013 at 8:14 am
🇺🇸Wow🇺🇸- it is a shame some think that the use of certain tactics weren’t used before. These tactics have been utilized by ALL sides in any battle or war, previous to February 4,2013.🇺🇸
🇺🇸The reason Buzzbee that your dad, yourself and everyone else not on the front line fighting and dying for OUR freedoms didnt know about certain tactics being used is WE WEREN’T THERE! From the time the first settlers stepped foot on American soil any battle or war that has been fought has been fought to win and using whatever means necessary to win.🇺🇸
🇺🇸Recently, within the last 20 to 30 years I would guess give or take a few years, ALL the American media outlets report whatever they want regardless of the content. They don’t check their facts prior to airing the story, they all want to be first even if the facts are WRONG just like they reported who the “shooter” was at the elementary school without knowing for sure and guess what, they were wrong! Previous to this a good reporter checked all the facts and sometimes they didn’t report a story if they were asked not to for whatever reason-and they wouldn’t until they knew the story wouldn’t jepordize/harm anyone or anything that OUR country was trying to accomplish during a war. That’s when people took responsibility for their own actions and didn’t blame everyone else.🇺🇸
🇺🇸America and Americans were stronger then. Do I think that any means should be used against prisoners who might/most likely/possibly/should and probably do have pertinent information that will aid OUR military with protecting America, her freedoms and people……..YES I DO! America is too precious to loose because some think during war we should be a little nicer especially when most know the other side wants America gone. God Bless OUR Beautiful Country that he has been generous enough allowing us to live here, have free will and be FREE.🇺🇸
February 4th, 2013 at 9:29 am
The only info obtained from KSM via water boarding was that they realized he was lying. All 183 times. Finding the courier led to finding Bin Laden. No one knew the courier was significant until they noticed KSM thought him important enough to lie about.
February 4th, 2013 at 10:13 am
Whether or not is supplied valuable information, it might have, so well worth trying. Besides, the guy deserved it anyways.
February 4th, 2013 at 12:16 pm
” No one knew the courier was significant until they noticed KSM thought him important enough to lie about.”
You just our point.
Without the waterboarding the lie never would of been brought to focus.
Duh
February 4th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Sorry
You just “made” our point.
Proof that drug use previous to maturation has its effects
February 4th, 2013 at 12:55 pm
So you’re saying that he lied because he was being tortured and he would not have lied otherwise??? And that somehow makes your point? Proof that drug use previous to maturation has its effects.
February 4th, 2013 at 1:15 pm
No, the process led to the discovery of lying about the courier.
Good guy;
“So, you say shes a blonde ?”
Good guy;
“Hmmm.., lets waterboard him”.
Bad guy after waterboarding;
” Yes, shes a blonde !”
Good guy;
“But we have pictures showing her as a brunette”.
Bad guy;
“Those are photo-shopped, shes a blonde !”
Good guy;
“Well, gee whizz, we’d better get to the bottom of this”.
One thing leads to another.
But without that “thing”
There will be no lead to the other.
Its so simple
February 4th, 2013 at 1:17 pm
If I’m brain damaged and can figure it out, whats your excuse ?
February 5th, 2013 at 8:31 am
🗽Isn’t is funny, not really- I just used it as an expression, how the very people who are AGAINST water boarding someone who has caused or will cause injury to an American or America are the first ones who use their FREEDOM OF SPEECH against what OUR military does to make sure OUR freedoms aren’t taken away.🗽
🗽At this very moment OUR Second Amendment is being crossed out and white out put over it as if it was never there.🗽
🗽This is a quote by someone who knew, at some point in time, OUR Second Amendment would be in jeopardy of disappearing.
🇺🇸 “The beauty of the Second Amendment is that
it will not be needed until they try and take it”🇺🇸
by Thomas Jefferson
🗽To me it is quite amazing the Thomas Jefferson new how people and power would eventually lead to the disappearance of OUR freedoms, one by one by one.🗽
🗽How does any American think our men and women are treated when they are prisoners of a country we are at war with? Yes, I know what your thinking: Two wrongs don’t make a right, correct? To answer that, I will say correct, they don’t but if we can get information from a terrorist before they have the opportunity to…. ummm, lets say before they have an opportunity to fly 2 planes into the World Trade Center Buildings, another plane into The Pentagon and another pla….Oh crap, that’s right THEY ALREADY DID! But hey, no problem, that’s okay I’m sure they won’t do anything else because that isn’t nice, right?🗽
🗽BURMP! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG AND WRONG AGAIN! They would have turned this country to ice the first opportunity they had. Please don’t act stupid and think because Osama is dead, so we are told, that there aren’t 100 more wanting to follow his plans and rid the world of America and people like you think that when these human beings are caught by OUR amazing CIA/FBI/Dept of Defense that they should give them three squares a day, a cozy bed, bathroom, fresh air and I certainly won’t forget they should also be nice to them because if they are nice to the terrorists then the terrorists will be nice also. They will wake up one day and have a sudden urge to tell all the who, what, where, when and whys of their evil plans, correct? Of course they would only do so after having a nice hot balanced breakfast so their mind will be in tip top shape to remember all the correct details.🗽
🗽You are an idiot, my fellow American. Hey, I have an idea:) •why don’t we, America, make a deal with a foreign country that DOES NOT have the freedoms that we have to allow all of you to go live in one of these countries for 5 years. Since they are all so nice and would never go back on their word, if you decide you like it better there, if we can find you after 5 years, by all means please don’t come back. Also while you are there make sure you voice your opinion about everything that you feel they should or shouldn’t do and I am sure they will listen to you. Oh and don’t forget to tell them they need to be nice to America because once again, two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m sure they will take your suggestions seriously and discuss something as they wash board you.🗽
🇺🇸Bon Voyage🇺🇸
February 5th, 2013 at 9:30 am
CAPS VIOLATION?
I see you are going with the “love it or leave it approach”.
I think I first heard that in, oh, 1966.
February 5th, 2013 at 9:55 am
And Because America Is Free You Have Been Able To Voice Your Opinion 24/7 Since 1966 Correct? Instead Of Worrying About Washboarding Why Not Ask Why President Obama’s Aunt Has Been In This Country Illegally Since 2000, I Believe, Told To Leave Before Her Nephew Was President And Never Did! She Also Is On Full Disability, Gets Free Housing And All The Other Freebees And Still Is Not A Citizen But Blames US Because We Gave Her Those Things. There Have Been Legit News Stories About It, Most Can Be Found On YouTube (is that a violation also? You Mist Have Been The “TattleTale” Of Your Neighborhood. Worry About That!
February 5th, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Tatttletale?
You really took that literally didn’t you?
I meant “violation” the same way when I accuse people of breaking the “hyperbole meter” (I am pretty sure there is no meter).
There are no written rules on RP on using CAPS FOR EMPHASIS (stop yelling) or capitalizing the first letter in a word for, I suppose, the same reason, I was merely surprised anyone would do that.
So I wasn’t “tattling” on you.
“🗽You are an idiot, my fellow American.”
Oh, you will be right at home here.
February 5th, 2013 at 12:53 pm
By the way, while Thomas Jefferson said a lot of things that can be referenced to make a point in the modern world he did not say the things you wrote.
Don’t feel bad, my stepmother continues to include me on email blasts of misinformation such as this even though I have repeatedly asked her to stop. I received one about Thomas Jefferson just last week that included all kinds of “quotes” that he never said.
I think yours would be on this list:
The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.
Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first reported in Matt Carson, On A Hill They Call Capital: A Revolution Is Coming (2007), p. 131. Not found prior to 2007.
When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first attributed to Jefferson in Gyeorgos C. Hatonn, It’s All in the Game: Butterflies, Mind Control–The Razor’s Edge (1994), p. 214. A 1912 issue of The American Anti-socialist attributes the re-ordered form, “Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty”, to John Basil Barnhill.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first attributed in The Southern Partisan (1992), p. 3. Not found prior to 1992; debunked in D. J. Mulloy, American Extremism: History, Politics and the Militia Movement (2004), p. 115.
Don’t worry, there are a lot of “real” Jefferson quotes that can be referenced to somehow imply that he would think that having overgrown boys running through the woods playing army with assault weapons on the weekend is a good idea. They probably have Red Dawn on their DVD (or would that be VHS?) at home. Hopefully that would be the original Patrick Swayze, Powers Boothe edition, not the remake.
February 5th, 2013 at 1:00 pm
I’m pretty sure what sleeper is saying is that you’re more of the pre 66 mentality that wanted to tear everything down with no viable alternatives.
So, you dont like waterboarding ?
Great.
If theres something that works better what would that be ?
Also, every country thats engaged in interrogation since the beginning of wars and espionage has used violent methods and they’re still being used today for some reason.
I can think of many non physical means of extraction that are far more cruel than waterboarding and would probably be more effective.
But, we have to at some point display that were off a higher conscience and morality to the world if we want respect from the global community.
Which we do, and have, in leaps and bounds.
There sno country on earth that cares for its captures and criminals like we do.
They get medical, protection from their cohorts if they divulge incriminating intel,balanced diet,clean amenities,and rights that even the general population of their home country would never afford them.
So far, the only thing the left has offered up is to broadcast to the world exactly how far our interrogators are allowed to go.
With that priceless idiocy I stand by my consistent statement that liberals have no business fighting wars, never mind criticizing methods they find inhumane.
KSM admitted he chopped off Daniel Pearls head and you fcking ass holes are worried about his treatment ?
After Saddams forces were kicked out of Kuwait and surrendered/captured they were more than happy to be taken prisoner by Americans, knowing their wounds would be cared for and they’d get a meal.
Many were killed by Saddam after their release.
Our morality is only worth if we do what we must to be able to show it to the world as much as possible instead of having it totally wiped out which is the exact wish of our enemy.
These are the people with the worst human rights violations on earth second only maybe to China who want to wipe out the country with the best record on earth of respecting human rights.
So, if we have to pour water on their faces to stop them, tough sht.
February 5th, 2013 at 1:05 pm
Gee, whatever you say Buzz, Thomas made it clear.
A Well-Organized and Armed Militia
“For a people who are free and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. It is, therefore, incumbent on us at every meeting [of Congress] to revise the condition of the militia and to ask ourselves if it is prepared to repel a powerful enemy at every point of our territories exposed to invasion… Congress alone have power to produce a uniform state of preparation in this great organ of defense. The interests which they so deeply feel in their own and their country’s security will present this as among the most important objects of their deliberation.”
–Thomas Jefferson: 8th Annual Message, 1808. ME 3:482
“None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important.” –Thomas Jefferson, 1803.
“It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings.” –Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.
“A well-disciplined militia, our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war till regulars may relieve them, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our Government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration.”
–Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801.
“[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms.” –Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.
“Uncertain as we must ever be of the particular point in our circumference where an enemy may choose to invade us, the only force which can be ready at every point and competent to oppose them, is the body of neighboring citizens as formed into a militia. On these, collected from the parts most convenient, in numbers proportioned to the invading foe, it is best to rely, not only to meet the first attack, but if it threatens to be permanent, to maintain the defence until regulars may be engaged to relieve them.”
–Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334
Every Citizen a Member of the Militia
“We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done.”
–Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.
“I think the truth must now be obvious that our people are too happy at home to enter into regular service, and that we cannot be defended but by making every citizen a soldier, as the Greeks and Romans who had no standing armies; and that in doing this all must be marshaled, classed by their ages, and every service ascribed to its competent class.”
–Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1814.
On Civil Rights
The Right to Bear Arms
In a nation governed by the people themselves, the possession of arms to defend their nation against usurpers within and without was deemed absolutely necessary. This right was protected by the 2nd Amendment.
“The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that… it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
–Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
“One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.”
–Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341
“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks.”
–Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.
“No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements).”
–Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
–Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
=============
That was too easy
February 5th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Retailers nationwide report a shortage of ammo due to stockpiling.
Yup, liberals, the gun industry’s best friend
February 5th, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Well, I’m glad we all agree that Thomas Jefferson is da man. Now that’s settled, can we agree with da man that waterboarding is less cruel and unusual punishment than death by hanging?
February 5th, 2013 at 3:36 pm
“By the way, while Thomas Jefferson said a lot of things that can be referenced to make a point in the modern world he did not say the things you wrote.”
That is what I stated, so you got on your google machine, did a little cutting and pasting and stated, “That was easy”.
I didn’t think it was difficult, hence the above statement.
I guess there is a point there somewhere.
February 5th, 2013 at 3:51 pm
Its not about who said what,what said who.
Its about what was said.
Your focus on whether or not Jefferson said these things or not is irrelevant to the value the statements themselves hold.
February 5th, 2013 at 4:08 pm
I suppose it because the recent paranoia about “taking people’s guns away”, which is somewhat ridiculous since everyone that wants one, now has two, has released a spate of quotes from Thomas Jefferson that did not emanate from him.
February 5th, 2013 at 5:33 pm
Buzz, do liberals really snapshot the world that way? I’m fairly certain that every 17 year old high school student who wants to own a gun does not yet, and that every old fart who wants to Will his guns to his children has not done so yet, you know, because they are still living.
February 5th, 2013 at 6:44 pm
“I suppose it because the recent paranoia about “taking people’s guns away”, which is somewhat ridiculous since everyone that wants one, now has two, has released a spate of quotes from Thomas Jefferson that did not emanate from him.”
I’m in a good mood, I thought I’d throw a couple of real Jefferson quotes up there just to keep you happy.
So, you’re saying people are a paranoid and those paranoid people now own twice as many guns ?
Sounds more like a room full of tweekers rather than a country.
Has it occurred to you that you just might be the one whos paranoid ? ?
February 6th, 2013 at 10:25 am
It is a shame Buzz that you had to go to such lengths to prove I misquoted Thomas Jefferson. The point I “tried” to make was understood by everyone but the person who it was intended for, I wonder why that is……
Anyways Buzz, your little CAPS VIOLATION was true to your character and any Liberals character-whah blah whah blah whah.
America is the best country on Earth! Yes, I do believe that if anyone doesn’t agree then “Good Bye”. Since America is the Best and is perceived as so by other countries who want to be the ones to take us out of the picture completely. We are only giving them more ammunition everytime someone complains about how “bad” war is and we should try to work out the issue first. We tried being nice and helping before, when we trained Osama and his people and gave them weapons? We were played like FOOLS because we were trying to be nice and help them…..fast forward to 9/11/01…..I don’t know if you knew anyone who was on any of those hijacked planes or at the Pentagon or World Trade Center and I would be surprised if you did. I did….I don’t think we should have gone to war, I think we should have turned their countries to ice and showed the world we are not going to take this crap lying down. Does anyone except for the Liberals gives two cents that anyone was wash boarded? As far as I’m concerned the military, CIA and anyone else invoked has a job to do but they can’t perform tasks properly if they have someone constantly peering over their shoulder telling them to make sure they play nice because everyone else does. Osama treated Americans nicely. He didn’t “torture” the Innocent people on the planes or in either of the 3 buildings, he just killed them. I’m sure it wasn’t torture for the family and friends of those Americans who died that day. That is compared to torture of wash boarding.
Guess what Buzz- in also think they should have chain gangs for repeat criminals or ones that are there for life-at least get some work done for what it costs to house, feed, entertain, health care, teach and everything else. I know you are soeechless:)
February 13th, 2013 at 4:01 am
I was suggested this web site by way of my cousin. I am no longer sure whether this put
up is written by him as no one else understand such distinctive approximately my trouble.
You’re amazing! Thank you!