
With our November elections looming there is an almost constant stream of political attack ads polluting our Televisions, radios, and computer screens. Name calling and mudslinging has been the norm on our American airwaves, with Joe Biden simultaneously making his usual “comedic” rounds. His last gaffe about “the whole load” made me laugh hard for at least 2 hours.
However, with that pushed aside there is a much more worthy subject that I would like to write about that has been seemingly ignored this election season by other so-called “less moronic than Joe” liberals – Debt and Poverty. With one truth telling unbiased glance at today’s America, it is easy to see that the intended purpose for certain parts of Johnson’s so-called “great society” have failed miserably.
For those who don’t know, or who would like to forget, “The Great Society” was a set of domestic programs proposed or enacted in the United States on the initiative of President Lyndon B. Johnson, many of which are still being used today in all of their bloated big government glory. The Great society began as “Help for the impoverished,” which morphed into Welfare and food stamps, which again mutated into our modern day S.N.A.P., “Obama gub’ment checks” and “OBAMAPHONE!”
As you can tell I am not a fan of some of the provisions made by LBJ and this is why. In an Article entitled “The 2011 Poverty Rate: What to Expect and How Long Will It Last?” From the The Center on Children and Families at Brookings, the 2011 poverty rate is predicted to be at 15.5 percent for adults and 22.8 percent for children, which is up a total of almost 3 Percent across the board since Obama claimed the Presidency.
It went on to tell, “Looking beyond 2011, we predict a rate of 15.6 for 2012 and a rate that remains above 15 percent for the next four years. By 2020, the poverty rate is expected to decline to around 14 percent, but our analysis suggests it will be many years before it returns to anything approaching the rate achieved before the recession began. With cuts in social spending for lower-income families slated to occur over the next decade, the outlook for the poor looks grim.”
This proves that poverty is not a “big city” problem but rather a national problem. Nationally we are drowning in massive debt, home foreclosures, job loss, and overall low morale while at the same time there is supposed to be many governmental programs in place designed to shore up against such an impoverished crisis.
Simply put, they aren’t working!
I believe that many of the very programs set up by our bloated government to fight against poverty have created poverty! How can you create wealth by dividing it? A house divided cannot stand, neither can an unemployed worker create production to employ and create more workers! How do you “pay in” to the system to protect against poverty, when you aren’t being paid? Truthfully speaking, when have you ever seen a “liberal bleeding heart” help anyone “get out of the ghetto?”
Election time in “liberal land” has always been about “throwing bones” to seem righteous, and “making people shut up and vote for them.” It has never been about “hope and change” but “slope and stock exchange.” Look at how many poor liberals have become millionaires after being elected, and you’ll know this is true. (Note: the Obama duo are allegedly billionaires, with alleged millions off-shore and billions to allegedly gain with the implementation of Obamacare.)
Unless we get America moving again with actually tangible and wide-scale production, sadly we will slip more and more into poverty. The percentages of those listed as “in poverty” will grow drastically with each and every passing day that this does not happen. S.N.A.P. cards and Gub’ment checks are only the answer to destroy the country, not build it up. The gap is widening into the truly poor on one side of this sadistic balance and the elitist rich on the other. If there is no true change soon, there will be no solid ground for the middle class to stand.
It’s an old cliché but a needed one if we are to ever lift us up out of poverty, “Buy American, today!” In closing I wanted to give a quote from a very smart man who sadly died in 2005, before our Obama debacle…please heed its call before it is too late!
“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.” – The late Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931- 2005, former Pastor of Belleview Baptist Church, Memphis, TN
My Newest book “The 5 Core Truths to All Self-Destructive Behavior: Fresh Ideas in a Rigid World” is available at Amazon.com and worldwide at many fine booksellers.
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November 1st, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Great first article, Jeremy. Welcome aboard!
We began undoing the Great Society mentality under Reagan and Clinton. You are right they are a failure, by and large, something everyone recognized 20 years ago. But the public seems to have short memories. They are back in spades under Obama.
November 1st, 2012 at 4:32 pm
It used to be a shameful thing to “collect” from the government. Today, our entitlement culture has been a cancerous tumor to our American economy. People need to take a lesson from the ancient Romans. They had entitlement programs too! And they became such a burden that they weakened their military enough to open a pathway to their destruction… Obamaland gotta’ go!
November 1st, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Thank you for your kind comments!
November 1st, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Thanks ! Jeremy
BTW 47% of all returning Combat Veterans are
applying for Delayed Stress Syndrome Disability
Benefits.
I have a ‘friend’ doing it. The benefits are most generous and they are For Life.
November 1st, 2012 at 5:42 pm
Let’s see, the last week on InTrade.
Seven days ago Obama was just under 60% for the probability of being elected.
Today?
68.6%
Uh, oh.
November 1st, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Intrade is in Ireland, isn’t it? It sounds like more Biden “Malarkey blarney” LOL
But, if it is true it is only because the naive have been sucked into the “Christie/Obama lovefest”
November 1st, 2012 at 6:01 pm
And as usual, cheering with Koolaid to avoid the issues.
November 1st, 2012 at 6:55 pm
WTF?
Oblahblah heads to Lost Vegas?
Harriet Reid serving pompusgranite pie?
Geezus BRay is about effective as a one legged man in a a** kicking contest.
Back to painting the new bathroom.
12 trees cut down this week.Roofer dude might be a no show….but the Rock guy was beyond brilliant.
November 1st, 2012 at 8:15 pm
“but the Rock guy was beyond brilliant.”
Thats just the rocks talking
November 2nd, 2012 at 4:22 am
Mick-
I won’t even begin to tell ya about the DIRT dude…
LMAO
November 2nd, 2012 at 5:44 am
Great article, Jeremy! Welcome to RP!
November 2nd, 2012 at 5:51 am
Thank you Andy Z!
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:02 am
It is interesting that red states trend towards taking more money than taxes paid, whereas blue states trend towards the opposite.
Highest 10 receivers of federal money:
1. D.C. (blue, also not technically a state)
2. North Dakota (red)
3. New Mexico (blue)
4. Mississippi (red)
5. Alaska (red)
6. West Virginia (red)
7. Montana (red)
8. Alabama (red)
9. South Dakota (red)
10. Arkansas (red)
That’s 8 out of 10 states being red. It’s also worth noting that a great majority of the most educated states are blue, whereas the great majority of the least educated are red. Also (since Republicans love touting morality) all 10 of the top 10 states with the highest divorce rates are red.
The difference between the Republican mentality of collecting entitlements vs the Democratic mentality is that Republicans have a ‘f*ck you, I’ve got mine’ way of thinking. Republicans are incredibly selfish and hypocritical.
Also, Jesus was a Democrat
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:06 am
I guess ‘Jesus was a liberal’ would be more accurate.
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:26 am
“The difference between the Republican mentality of collecting entitlements vs the Democratic mentality is that Republicans have a ‘f*ck you, I’ve got mine’ way of thinking. Republicans are incredibly selfish and hypocritical.”
You never did point out the difference you idiot
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:30 am
Okay, I’ll spell it out for you since you have a terrible time drawing conclusions:
The difference between the Republican mentality of collecting entitlements vs the Democratic mentality is that Republicans have a ‘f*ck you, I’ve got mine’ way of thinking, whereas Democrats do not.
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:32 am
Heres the difference.
“BOSTON — States with the least religious residents are also the stingiest about giving money to charity, a new study on the generosity of Americans suggests.
The study, released Monday by the Chronicle of Philanthropy, found that residents in states where religious participation is higher than the rest of the nation, particularly in the South, gave the greatest percentage of their discretionary income to charity.
The Northeast, with lower religious participation, was the least generous to charities, with the six New England states filling the last six slots among the 50 states. Churches are among the organizations counted as charities by the study, and some states in the Northeast rank in the top 10 when religious giving is not counted.
The most generous state was Utah, where residents gave 10.6 percent of their discretionary income to charity. Next were Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and South Carolina. The least generous was New Hampshire, at 2.5 percent, followed by Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island.
In Boston, semi-retired carpenter Stephen Cremins said the traditional New England ideal of self-sufficiency might explain the lower giving, particularly during tight times when people have less to spare.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/20/study-less-religious-stat_n_1810425.html
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:34 am
“The Most Generous States: Republican and Religious”
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/generous-states-charities-lean-republican/story?id=17030246#.UJPiMW_A-So
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:35 am
“In the color of money, red staters more charitable than blues”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/20/religion-politics-affect-americans-philanthropy/?page=all
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:37 am
“Study: Red states more charitable”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79888.html
============================
Republicans make more, and give more.
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:38 am
WASSUP JEREMY !
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:40 am
From your article:
But researchers caution that churchgoers are no more generous than secular Americans when donations to religious groups are excluded.
If you don’t count the 10% guilt-fee that churches ask for, then you got nothing. Also, is giving to a church really giving to charity?
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:48 am
“Also, Jesus was a Democrat ”
Look what that got him.
Some liberal Jew too lazy to work sold him out to the Romans for a handful of change.
I miss Sam Kinison
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:55 am
“If you don’t count the 10% guilt-fee that churches ask for, then you got nothing. Also, is giving to a church really giving to charity?”
Where you get “guilt fee” ?
Say what you want. We still give more.
I “Choose” to believe in God and along with that choice comes a life of altruism.
“Ask” is a far cry from the IRS locking you up for failing to meet mandates such as the ones in Obamacare which.
You say Jesus was a dem ?
With your analysis and hate of the church that makes no fcking sense.
You greedy ass holes ran the country broker than its ever been.
Shut up.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:01 am
“But researchers caution that churchgoers are no more generous than secular Americans when donations to religious groups are excluded.”
Yeah, I thought I’d toss in the Huffy post just to pacify you.
Too bad those religious groups are on the right.
Which is my point, idjut.
Learn the difference between who donates to churches and what the churchs donate.
Go drink some coffee, away from Starbucks
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:04 am
I wont debate that churches do good things, hell I donate time every year to the church wrapping presents for kids in need, but only a small percentage of your guilt-fee goes to anything other than propping up the church and paying the pastor, and as your very own article stated – when you take out religious donations, there’s no difference between the amount given between seculars and sky-zombie worshippers.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:05 am
Yeah, I thought I’d toss in the Huffy post just to pacify you
That wasn’t from the huffy po article
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:11 am
Go drink some coffee, away from Starbucks
I’m not a Starbucks fan, I just make my own damn coffee. Caribou’s hot chocolate is pretty good though.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:13 am
” Also, is giving to a church really giving to charity?”
You’re stupid.
First of all.
The premise that churches/republicans are somehow custodians of non academics is asinine since thousands of churchs across the country are dependent on groundbreaking state of the art science and technology.
Secondly.
These hospitals owned by various churchs are going broke because of all the free work they do.
So, yes, Churchs are charities you moron.
I volunteer at two churchs food pantrys every week. Those pantys are filled by the offering plate and people like me who gather from stores and vendors.
My gas, my time, my energy.
Back in the day when I had needles in my arm and a bottle of Jack fused to my mouth ended up in Castle Hospital Kaneohe Hi.
After a month the bill was 18,000.00 bucks.
They forgave the bill.
Now I bring my clients to them.
Wise up sht head
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:15 am
“That wasn’t from the huffy po article ”
I still tossed em in
“Hot Chocolate” ?
Pu$$y
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:18 am
@ Snow
I sure hope you make it thru this election.
You’re fallin apart dude, gwtting desperate.
You’re not the man I used to know.
You’re breakin my heart.
(as gay as that sounds I’m sure you dont care)
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:19 am
The point is, your whole argument is based on the fact that people donate money to churches, which is why states in the bible belt appear to give more to charity (this is all from the articles YOU provide), however, when you omit the guilt-fee then the playing field is leveled, again this is based on what your article states.
Giving to a church is not the same as giving to charity, a great majority of that money goes to propping up the church and spreading the word of the sky-zombie.
Walmart donates money to the poor, so when I shop at Walmart should I say I’m donating to charity?
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:25 am
“The point is, your whole argument is based on the fact that people donate money to churches, ”
Nooo…………….
Republicans are the most altruistic charitable demographic on the planet giving more to tons of charities outside the church because of their faith.
As far as the churchs go they do invest and turn the profits to charity.
You cant win.
The conservative mindset is not “fck you I got mine”
Its “fck you, dont tell me what to do with whats mine”
Because even you Mr.Snow know how to spend your wealth better than government, right ?
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:31 am
I’m going off of the articles you provided. Your original argument was that red states donate more than blue states, but the very article you provided me states that when you omit giving money to the church then the playing field is leveled.
Republicans are the most altruistic charitable demographic on the planet giving more to tons of charities outside the church because of their faith.
Prove it.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:37 am
Check this out:
http://business.time.com/2012/08/21/how-religious-affiliation-affects-charitable-giving/?iid=pf-main-lede/#ixzz24WmdBZi9
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:44 am
Do you ever wonder why the most religious states happen to be the least educated? (they also happen to be the most obese as well – lazy bastards)
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:50 am
Here are some more interesting facts about the chunky bible-thumpers in the south:
They lead in child abuse, spousal abuse, rape, assault and battery, and illegitimate children!
If you want to see a taste of what Republicans really want this country to become, just look at the bible belt.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:53 am
“Prove it.”
I did.
You’re just a poor victim of “selective memory”.
Weve had this debate before.
Stop smoking that cheap sht.
“Do you ever wonder why the most religious states happen to be the least educated? (they also happen to be the most obese as well – lazy bastards)”
Yet, the christians who run all these hospitals using state of the art science and medicine are all lazy idiot bastards ?
You’re goin in circles bro.
Tell you what buttmunch/
When your messiah stops saying “at some point you’ve made enough money”
“fair share”
“the rich can give a little more”
Then your argument might stand.
g’day
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:57 am
Because even you Mr.Snow know how to spend your wealth better than government, right ?
Answer the question.
This is not about fat people and Bloombergs obsession with them
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:07 am
NYTs and Science 2.0
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?source=science20.com&_r=0
“They found that donations to a specific charity by Republicans and Democrats….
(which are interchangeably conservatives and liberals to marketing people and clueless young comment editors)
(snow)
…are strongly affected by their perceptions of the charity’s alignment with each party’s respective moral foundations. Modern Republicans’ moral foundations are embodied in concepts like individuality and loyalty; modern Democrats’ moral foundations are embodied in concepts like equality and protection.
====================
“This holiday season is a time to examine who’s been naughty and who’s been nice, but I’m unhappy with my findings. The problem is this: We liberals are personally stingy.
Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates.
Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.
Other research has reached similar conclusions. The “generosity index” from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so.
The upshot is that Democrats, who speak passionately about the hungry and homeless, personally fork over less money to charity than Republicans — the ones who try to cut health insurance for children.
“When I started doing research on charity,” Mr. Brooks wrote, “I expected to find that political liberals — who, I believed, genuinely cared more about others than conservatives did — would turn out to be the most privately charitable people. So when my early findings led me to the opposite conclusion, I assumed I had made some sort of technical error. I re-ran analyses. I got new data. Nothing worked. In the end, I had no option but to change my views.”
Something similar is true internationally. European countries seem to show more compassion than America in providing safety nets for the poor, and they give far more humanitarian foreign aid per capita than the United States does. But as individuals, Europeans are far less charitable than Americans.
Americans give sums to charity equivalent to 1.67 percent of G.N.P., according to a terrific new book, “Philanthrocapitalism,” by Matthew Bishop and Michael Green. The British are second, with 0.73 percent, while the stingiest people on the list are the French, at 0.14 percent.
(Looking away from politics, there’s evidence that one of the most generous groups in America is gays. Researchers believe that is because they are less likely to have rapacious heirs pushing to keep wealth in the family.)
When liberals see the data on giving, they tend to protest that conservatives look good only because they shower dollars on churches — that a fair amount of that money isn’t helping the poor, but simply constructing lavish spires.
It’s true that religion is the essential reason conservatives give more, and religious liberals are as generous as religious conservatives. Among the stingiest of the stingy are secular conservatives.
According to Google’s figures, if donations to all religious organizations are excluded, liberals give slightly more to charity than conservatives do. But Mr. Brooks says that if measuring by the percentage of income given, conservatives are more generous than liberals even to secular causes.
In any case, if conservative donations often end up building extravagant churches, liberal donations frequently sustain art museums, symphonies, schools and universities that cater to the well-off. (It’s great to support the arts and education, but they’re not the same as charity for the needy. And some research suggests that donations to education actually increase inequality because they go mostly to elite institutions attended by the wealthy.)
Conservatives also appear to be more generous than liberals in nonfinancial ways. People in red states are considerably more likely to volunteer for good causes, and conservatives give blood more often. If liberals and moderates gave blood as often as conservatives, Mr. Brooks said, the American blood supply would increase by 45 percent.
So, you’ve guessed it! This column is a transparent attempt this holiday season to shame liberals into being more charitable. Since I often scold Republicans for being callous in their policies toward the needy, it seems only fair to reproach Democrats for being cheap in their private donations. What I want for Christmas is a healthy competition between left and right to see who actually does more for the neediest.”
============
So you see, in the end, you’re a lazy socialist wimp who just wants to spread the wealth instead of your own
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:28 am
I’m just saying the fattest, the stupidest, and the most morally f*cked up states just happen to be red. It’s no wonder they donate more to their sky-zombie worship centers in the way of a guilt-tax!
Monday through Saturday they are being glutinous hogs, beating and cheating on their spouses, raping each other, etc. Sunday they are ‘good’ little Christians, go to church so the sky-zombie can forgive them for all their terrible deeds! Pay a few bucks and you can feel even more forgiven.
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:35 am
Micky, Micky, Micky,
You are calling the wrong person a lazy non-giving socialist.
First, as I have stated before in the past, I think in general entitlements are a bad thing, but I do believe we need a more socialized healthcare system.
Also, I donate to many causes. I have sponsored kids in Africa, I donate to gay rights, Children’s Hospital and I donate a LOT of time writing software for a company who’s product is a system to get the most amount of money to the people who really need it. We have moved thousands of dollars to families in CO who were victims of the wildfires of last summer, we are moving thousands of dollars over to NY right now.
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:36 am
Welcome aboard, Jeremy. Nice article.
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:37 am
“I’m just saying the fattest, the stupidest, and the most morally f*cked up states just happen to be red. It’s no wonder they donate more to their sky-zombie worship centers in the way of a guilt-tax!
Monday through Saturday they are being glutinous hogs, beating and cheating on their spouses, raping each other, etc. Sunday they are ‘good’ little Christians, go to church so the sky-zombie can forgive them for all their terrible deeds! Pay a few bucks and you can feel even more forgiven.”
This is irrelevant.
======================
Right now Bloombergs more worried about his marathon and you ass holes let our servants die on our own soil while they begging for their lives because you wanted to preserve this bs image that the whole world think your care n compassion for the middle east was working so well.
So dont talk, please.
And save your bigotry and hatred for someone dumber.
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:38 am
BTW, I’ve never seen a dime for the hundreds (or even thousands) of hours I have donated to that company – I do it out of the goodness of my heart
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:57 am
“It’s no wonder they donate more to their sky-zombie worship centers in the way of a guilt-tax!”
Stop with the guilt tax crap you pulled outcherass.
The majority of these fat christian people you bash on actually care. WTF is wrong with that ?
Also, your mention of hypocrisy in the church rings hollow to my ears as I’m on record repeatedly stating my contempt for “organized” religion and the lemming mindset no matter what holds it captive !
As far as “guilt” goes I suggest you examine you partys doctrine and platform and how everything they dictate is derived of guilt.
Be it guilty for being succesful,being gulity for being wealthy, being guilty for being alive, being guilty for using earths resources, guilty for being pregnant, guilty for not paying for you BC and abortions or your healthcare, or your rent, or your dope…
…the list goes on and on.
I’ll do it out my own will and heart if I see fit b!tch and you’ll never take that away with your bigoted assesments ! Got it ?
As the authors quote from Dr Rogers goes;
“the You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
When will you idiots ever learn and stop trying to re-invent socialism under every fake premise there is ?
Were done schmuck, you pi$$ed me off with your childish diversions to peoples weight and lifestyles which are just as common on the left as the right
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:58 am
“It’s no wonder they donate more to their sky-zombie worship centers in the way of a guilt-tax!”
Stop with the guilt tax crap you pulled outcherass.
The majority of these fat christian people you bash on actually care. WTF is wrong with that ?
Also, your mention of hypocrisy in the church rings hollow to my ears as I’m on record repeatedly stating my contempt for “organized” religion and the lemming mindset no matter what holds it captive !
As far as “guilt” goes I suggest you examine you partys doctrine and platform and how everything they dictate is derived of guilt.
Be it guilty for being successful,being guilty for being wealthy, being guilty for being alive, being guilty for using earths resources, guilty for being pregnant, guilty for not paying for you BC and abortions or your healthcare, or your rent, or your dope…
…the list goes on and on.
I’ll do it out my own will and heart if I see fit b!tch and you’ll never take that away with your bigoted assessments ! Got it ?
As the authors quote from Dr Rogers goes;
“the You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
When will you idiots ever learn and stop trying to re-invent socialism under every fake premise there is ?
Were done schmuck, you pi$$ed me off with your childish diversions to peoples weight and lifestyles which are just as common on the left as the right
November 2nd, 2012 at 10:03 am
““It’s no wonder they donate more to their sky-zombie worship centers in the way of a guilt-tax!”
But…. but….
How can churchs be that bad, didnt you say said Jesus was a democrat ?
Now hes a sky zombie ?
sit down and shut up moron
November 2nd, 2012 at 10:38 am
Snow, reading your distortions produced in me an array of emotions: astonishment, indignation, sadness and pity. I wonder why you chose to drown yourself in such blatant ocean of self-delusion, because I’ve seen here that you other times are capable of articulate thinking. If you ever decide to come out from the cave of lies you’ve chosen to take refuge in from the truth, I’d be more than happy to discuss some of this points with you.
I’ll be proactive and start with the “Jesus was a Democrat”. You are wrong, Jesus pissed off all extremes of the political spectrum of the day (herodians, pharisees and saducees), that they agreed together to plot his death. In the specific case of Democrats, Jesus would be marginalized just because he talked about God.
November 2nd, 2012 at 10:58 am
WoW! all of the comments! I have really stirred the pot…something I love to do! Note: Jesus isn’t a Liberal, Democrat, or Republican…Jesus is the LORD!
November 2nd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Thank you Arriba!
November 2nd, 2012 at 11:33 am
I think Snow’s comments are instructive. It is absolutely true that liberals give less to charity. Even at the top of the tickets, look at Obama and Al Gore’s miserly contributions to charity their released tax returns. I think it is part of their psychological makeup. When you believe it is someone else’s responsibility to provide for you, there is no reason to provide for others.
But if you point out the simple truth, the liberal anger runneth deep. They are very angry, self-centered people, who without God in their lives have no reason to help others whether that is thru charitable giving or volunteering for the religious charities they the so loathe like Salvation Army and Catholic Charities.
If you want to know the difference between liberals and conservatives, just reread Snow.
November 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 am
Thank you for the composure gentlemen.
I lost it.
Rivera;
” because I’ve seen here that you other times are capable of articulate thinking.”
Micky;
“@ Snow
I sure hope you make it thru this election.
You’re fallin apart dude, getting desperate.
You’re not the man I used to know.
You’re breakin my heart.”
Yea, Snow is losing it.
Hes been better.
November 2nd, 2012 at 5:29 pm
If you want to know the difference between liberals and conservatives, just reread Snow.
Right, despite being devoid of a soul I still manage to give more to charity and donate more of my time to good causes than most people I know.
Most Republicans I know are only good moral people in their own minds. They are the type of people where if someone is in need they don’t offer assistance, they offer prayer, like that’s any good.
They are the type of people that do this sh*t to my car (link below). If another sh*tty Christian damages my property and I catch them, I’m gonna start knocking heads! This is NOT the first time. At least this one was kind enough to leave a note! This happened in a parking lot.
http://i.imgur.com/oFPt6.jpg
November 2nd, 2012 at 6:32 pm
“Right, despite being devoid of a soul I still manage to give more to charity and donate more of my time to good causes than most people I know.”
Its been established that you obviously know the wrong people.
Your personal problems are irrelevant to the point.
With the stupid sht that comes out of your mouth its a miracle you’re still typing.
Count your blessings.
How the hell do you know Christians screwed with your car ?
Like everything, you make these wild claims and assertions based on hate and ignorance.
November 2nd, 2012 at 6:37 pm
Because it’s a Flying Spaghetti Monster emblem, which symbolizes atheism. I found it broken with a note that said “have fun in hell.” Who else would do that? Another atheist?
November 2nd, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Yeah, I know what it is Einstein.
For all we know some liberal Atheist could of done it just to put Christians in a bad light.
Come to think of it.
If some dude could pull that off your body and split it in two with his bare hands I wouldnt fck with him.
For all anyone knows, you did it.
Pretty lame bro, pretty lame
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:13 pm
You’re a moron.
November 2nd, 2012 at 8:57 pm
A moron thats smarter than you
November 2nd, 2012 at 9:26 pm
Hard to know who is smarter but anyone with common sense would rather have a beer with Micky.
So Snow, your religious bigotry is because someone said something bad on your material possession? Obviously you were antagonizing your neighbors, which is fairly typical behavior for liberals. But allowing what your probably deserved to further fuel your hatred reminds me of Rosebud for some reason, which makes you Citizen Kane. How sad for you.
November 2nd, 2012 at 11:54 pm
Patrick,
What makes you think I was antagonizing my neighbors?
No, my lack of enthusiasm for religion stems from way further back, as a child even. From a young age I realized how patently ridiculous religion is, and I grew up in a very religious right-wing fundie household. It always felt like Santa Claus – I never really believed in it, but I would pretend to. Even as a kid I noticed how people would pretend like they are good little Christians on Sunday, but every other day, well, that’s a different story. I feel that most Christians are ‘just-in-case’ Christians where they force belief just in case it’s true, but they don’t truly believe.
Think about how ridiculous the bible really is (do I really need to bring up examples?). If the same thing that was passed as truth from thousands of years ago by superstitious desert nomads happened today then it would seem quite ridiculous and nobody would believe it. Instead, people fear mortality so they seek some sort of comfort. They can’t deal with the fact that once you’re gone, you’re gone, so they conjure up a fantasy to make themselves feel better about death. People actually structure their entire lives based on some bullsh*t that allegedly happened thousands of years ago, without a shred of evidence. That blows my mind.
I’ve heard it all before. People will say “Well, I have my own proof! I know God is true because I’ve felt him myself!” Well, so have people from all other religions, yours is nothing special. Muslims are convinced enough that they blow themselves up in the name of their God.
No matter where you are born, your religion is “truth”. Patrick, had you been born in the middle-east then you would be a Muslim. You have the fearful mind, so you would follow the religion that you were indoctrinated in to. As a Muslim your truth would be the only truth and Christians would be evil – but my belief is that you’re all wrong. You’ve simply been brainwashed and through fear you will believe in a false god because it makes you feel better.
To each their own.
November 3rd, 2012 at 3:45 am
“People actually structure their entire lives based on some bullsh*t that allegedly happened thousands of years ago, without a shred of evidence. That blows my mind.”
You just showed everyone a picture alleging something without a shred of evidence.
And you expect us to believe it.
November 3rd, 2012 at 6:16 am
Right Mick, I break my own stuff to prove a point. Personally I don’t care if you believe it or not. And besides, whether you believe it or not has absolutely no affect on my life. I’m not structuring my life around that incident, I just have to spend another $10 on a new emblem – speaking of which, I’m not too impressed that whoever broke it did so with their bare hands, it’s just plastic and they don’t stick on the car too terribly well.
November 3rd, 2012 at 6:33 am
Since we’re on the topic of evidence, let’s talk about something more interesting than a stupid emblem.
What evidence of God have you seen in your life? Is it just the sheer complexity of life as you have mentioned in the past, or is there something more interesting?
November 3rd, 2012 at 6:51 am
I’ve heard you talk about the complexity of life in the past and how it just doesn’t seem possible that all of this just happened by ‘accident’.
There is a passage in the bible which talks about how a mountain helped guide those by day and by night, but chances are it was just a volcano, but at that time it seemed too complex because people didn’t understand volcanos. God has been used to explain a lot of seemingly complex events, which are later debunked and explained by science.
Why do Christians often reject evolution? There is mountains of evidence that support that theory (btw, if you’re going to use the whole ‘it’s just a theory jab’ that I hear so often, understand that gravity is just a theory too and theories in science aren’t what many people think – they are just guesses, they are supported by factual evidence).
In Revelations is says that if you make it to heaven then you’ll enjoy an eternity worshipping God. Does this sound like a good thing to you?
Also, if there is a god, why would he be so damn narcissistic and self-absorbed? I didn’t ask to be brought into this life, I had no say in it, I was just one of the millions of sperms that happened to crack the egg – so because of this event that I had no bearing on, now I have to structure my life around God? If I don’t then God will send me to an eternity in hell, if I do then my ‘free will’ is compromised and I might go to heaven where I can spend an eternity worshipping this deity? That sounds like a sh*tty deal to me.
Also, really, what’s the point of God creating us? Just so we can worship him? Is he that insecure? Was he just sitting around one day thinking “You know what, I’m f*cking bored. I need something to do, so I’ll create… humans… and if they don’t follow my word then THEY CAN GO TO HELL FOR ETERNITY! But I love them!” That sounds like a sick version of an ant farm.
The whole thing just doesn’t make sense. And I don’t believe in that ‘God works in mysterious ways’ BS. Look, it’s my eternity on the line, you don’t just throw out some deal like that in hopes I worship you.
If God is omniscient as explained in the bible then he already knew before I was born that I’m going to hell. So, he just allows that? That seems pretty f*cked up to me – “I know billions are going to suffer for eternity at my expense, way more will suffer than make it up here where I can watch them grovel at my feet for eternity, but whatevs, it is what it is.”
November 3rd, 2012 at 6:55 am
Oops, that was supposed to read
they AREN’T just guesses
November 3rd, 2012 at 7:09 am
I’d be interested in hearing the thoughts of others on this. I know you’re not a hardcore Christian Mick, you don’t like organized religion of any flavor, which I can appreciate. You seem to be more a ’spiritual’ Christian and less of a practicing one.
I’d be interested in hearing Jeremy and Patrick’s response if they see this. No poo slinging this time I promise, I’m genuinely interested in all of your thoughts.
November 3rd, 2012 at 8:31 am
“Since we’re on the topic of evidence, let’s talk about something more interesting than a stupid emblem.
What evidence of God have you seen in your life?”
I’m not interested in another religion debate.
It comes down to this.
I dont have to prove sht to you because I’m not asking you to believe anything.
And you cant prove the absence of God or if you didnt break your own sht.
You expect me to believe it isnt you who broke it.
You’re the one asking anyone to believe something.
Wise up ass hole.
November 3rd, 2012 at 8:52 am
Meh, I guess I really didn’t expect anything substantial from you anyway.
Well, hopefully someone with something more interesting to say will chime in.
November 3rd, 2012 at 8:53 am
“it’s just plastic and they don’t stick on the car too terribly well.”
I used to have metal refinishing shop where everything being chromed had to be polished previous to the electroplating.
We had a contract electroplating (sometimes gold) automotive plaques, VW, Mercedes etc.
We did a sht load of spaghetti monster plaques once that were made out of billet and attached using barbed mounts.
We normally did wheels and a lot of Harley parts.
The smaller stuff, rivets for wheels etc were a pain in the ass because if they got yanked out of your hand by the buffing wheel they flew around the shop like a ricocheting bullet.
You bought the cheaper plastic one.
November 3rd, 2012 at 8:55 am
Yep, just the cheap shitty one from Amazon.
November 3rd, 2012 at 9:01 am
“Meh, I guess I really didn’t expect anything substantial from you anyway.”
You asked me a question and I answered in the context that I’m not doing another marathon religion debate.
You already said you would like to hear from the others on this since you already know my position.
Asking anyone for proof of a deity is intellectually dishonest, unless you’re really really stupid..
Just as is you asking folks to believe your sht with no proof.
November 3rd, 2012 at 9:04 am
I volunteer at St. Marks food pantry on Saturdays.
Gotta shave, sht n shine.
Bye
November 3rd, 2012 at 11:04 am
Snow Crash,
Although your invitation was not directed at me, I’ll take a stab at it.
Vocano? It wasn’t a volcano, because the Israelites walked for 40 years, and the fire relocated as they moved.
Reject evolution? Mainstream Christians reject macroevolution, primarily because the evidence weights against it, not in favor of it. Choose whatever realm of science you prefer: fossil registry does not show transitional forms, the laws of thermodynamics point to the need of an initial creating point, the interdependency of systems can’t be explained by random chance… The list is really long and available if you have interest.
Happy in an eternity worshiping God? For those that know him, it’s the best thing that can happen. Heck, we already began doing so! Think about it: if He created this earth in 6 days and it packed with awesome things even after the Fall, breathtaking sunsets, beautiful nature and the like… how’s Heaven going to be, where Jesus has been working on our living place for two thousand years!
God narcissistic? If God is God, and is the definition and embodiment of all good, He is then the only being in the universe that can praise himself and never be guilty of pride. Also, I don’t understand your complain of a “sh*tty deal”.
I have done some pretty awful things in my life, and I knew I was doing wrong. I knew I was hurting others in the process –and ultimately myself-, but I lusted after what was there for me to gain, for my own benefit and pleasure, even when my conscience told me I was doing evil. I knew I was guilty, but just hoped to get away with it. And when I was imprisoned by my own choices, Jesus shows up and tells me that although I am guilty, if I repent and turn away from my sins He’ll forgive me. On top of that, He was going to pay the penalty for what I did, and give me the strength and guidance to do better, and take me to live with Him forever. Heck, that sounds like a great deal for me! I can’t go into much detail here, but I owe Him so much particularly these 26 years after His path intersected with mine. (Hint: I was an evolutionist among other things before that.)
God’s mysterious ways? By definition, if He is God, then he’s bound to know infinitely much more than you. Therefore, just like little children can’t understand what their father do because of their differences of capacities, so are we. But He does not leave us like that: He grants wisdom and increases understanding to those that seek it.
Suffering and omniscience? This is a good question. Tons of books on both sides of the aisle have been written about this. I can’t unpack here a comprehensive attempt to cast light on this topic, but I can say this: Jesus never saw existence of evil as contradictory to the character of God. He did not shy away talking about earthquakes, plagues and many other bad things that happen. On the contrary, he said that they were going to increase. On top of that, if there’s any being that can identify with all the bad things that happen to us, it’s Him: he was censored, murmured against, was poor, hungry at times, hated, persecuted, rejected after doing good and healings and teaching, and ultimately killed. Against that backdrop, he was unwavering to talk about how the Father loved us, even though we fulfill the same measure of those that hated him without reason. Considering that, I take very seriously what he says, by which I have acquired some understanding that has served me well these years, and will ultimately understand in full strength the day I finally see His face.
November 3rd, 2012 at 11:35 am
Rivera,
Nice response! It certainly didn’t go unnoticed and I will reply to all of your points ASAP, unfortunately I have a few errands to run.
November 3rd, 2012 at 11:35 am
BTW, it was directed at anybody who is willing to discuss this. Anyways, I’ll be back ASAP.
November 3rd, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Snow, it is indeed an interesting question that you ask but for committed non-believers it is not the right question (I’ll get to that later). Evidence of God is all around you but the intellectual process of finding him is thru deductive reasoning rather than physical evidence.
For unobstructed minds, a possible way to find him is by asking yourself this question: why is it that I choose to do good things rather than bad things, even when I know that I can get away with something that is wrong? When an elderly lady drops a $20 out of her purse, why do you give it back to her when you can keep it yourself? When the waiter forgets to put that last beer on your check, why do you correct his error? The answer is this curious thing called your Conscience for which there is no scientific explanation except for God giving you the nutty idea of putting your own interests behind others. R Rivera’s comment is very instructive on how God helps people make choices that are good for your neighbors.
Granted, the application of conscience by the average atheist is less than practicing Christians. In your own case, you take great glee in announcing that you like to post comments on this site just to get under people’s skin and cause them grief. Getting satisfaction from tearing people down is not an exercise in good conscience, although you do have one in there somewhere because God gave it to everyone. And I presume that you do use your good conscience enough to build people up occasionally enough, so a Reasoner like yourself might consider where it comes from.
But rather than demand proof of God, the real question that should interest atheists more is this one: Whether or not God really exists, is society better off that we have a ton of people practicing the Christian faith? Irrefutably yes! Practicing Christians live longer, commit less crime, do less drugs, and are happier people than atheists. That is an undeniably good outcome for society in terms of financial costs and communal order, so even though you personally choose to take a purposeless path, it is illogical not to be thankful that Christians are all around you. They make society a better place for you to live.
November 4th, 2012 at 6:35 am
Sorry, this is very long, but there’s a lot to reply to!
Reject evolution? Mainstream Christians reject macroevolution, primarily because the evidence weights against it, not in favor of it. Choose whatever realm of science you prefer: fossil registry does not show transitional forms, the laws of thermodynamics point to the need of an initial creating point, the interdependency of systems can’t be explained by random chance… The list is really long and available if you have interest.
This is actually false though. There are many examples of transitional forms. Ignoring the thousands of examples in plants, I’ll focus on animals:
Here is a well-sourced website which details many transitional forms, such as birds to reptile
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates
Since I believe only 1 link is allowed per submission, I’ll list human transitional forms which have been discovered. For humans alone we have discovered we have discovered fossils for well over 20 transitional forms, here are over 20 of them:
Sahelanthropus Tchadensis, Orrorin Tugenensis, Ardipithecus Ramidus, Australopithecus Anamensis, Australopithecus Anamensis, Australopithecus Afarensis, Kenyanthoropus Platyops, Australopithecus Africanus, Australopithecus Garhi, Australopithecus Sediba, Australopithecus Aethiopicus, Australopithecus Robustus, Australopithecus Boisei, Homo Habilis, Homo Georgicus, Homo Erectus, Homo Ergaster, Homo Gautengensis, Homo Antecessor, Homo Heidelbergensis, Homo Neanderthalensis, Homo Floresiensis and Homo Sapien.
If you want an example of something like reptile to bird, then in order we have:
Coelophysis, Deinonychus, Oviraptor, Lisboasaurus, Protoavis, Archeopteryx, Sinornis, Ambiortus, Hesperornis, Ichthyornis.
I could easily spend thousands of words and hundreds of links on this topic alone. We have many very clear examples of transitional forms.
Happy in an eternity worshiping God? For those that know him, it’s the best thing that can happen. Heck, we already began doing so! Think about it: if He created this earth in 6 days and it packed with awesome things even after the Fall, breathtaking sunsets, beautiful nature and the like… how’s Heaven going to be, where Jesus has been working on our living place for two thousand years!
Breathtaking sunsets and beautiful nature is really just your appreciation for nature. This in no way proves that there is a god. Also, it’s hard to debate with creationists who believe the Earth was created in 6 days because we have very clear evidence that this isn’t the case, but no matter which evidence is brought forth it is often reduced to “God works in mysterious ways”, or the evidence is thrown out by the creationist entirely, even though that evidence is purely scientific.
God narcissistic?
That’s how I feel because if I reject God then I am to spend an eternity in hell. I could be a very good person morally, I could be someone who changes this world for the better (such as Bill Gates, who is atheist), but simply because I don’t accept him as my god then I spend an eternity – yes, an ETERNITY in hell. I’ll touch on this more when I respond to Patrick below.
I have done some pretty awful things in my life…
We all have. I think the sense of forgiveness is your forgiving yourself. I don’t believe in God and I have done awful things, but I still feel a sense of self-forgiveness despite rejecting God.
I went from a PITA kid who ran away from home, lived in hotels at the ages of 18-19 (with my now wife), to someone who works hard, has a successful career, is happy with life, is in love with my wife, who even donates time to churches, donates time to non-profits, donates monthly to Children’s Hospital, sponsors kids in Africa, etc – and I did all of this without God.
I’m going to respond to Patrick, which will probably address some of the other issues you brought up:
Patrick,
why is it that I choose to do good things rather than bad things, even when I know that I can get away with something that is wrong?
We have gone back and forth on this one before.
I believe we choose to do good things because we are raised to do good things. Much of how you are is influenced by how you grew up. If you grow up in a morally screwed up family then you will probably become screwed up morally as an adult. Despite being atheist, my (future) kids will grow up in a very open and good household therefor my kids will likely become morally good adults, despite having little exposure to religion. My wife and I have also committed to not allowing our (future) kids to grow up where we make their decisions for them when it comes to belief. Kids are often indoctrinated at a very young age – like I’ve said before, had you grown up in a Muslim community then you would be Muslim, same for Buddhist or any other religion. You are a product of your environment.
Also, let’s consider a few things here:
It’s not just your communal environment which helps shape who you are, it’s law and order. Generally people are good, sure, but let’s look at an example like Hurricane Katrina – the same people who were good weeks before became looters and shooters once that region became chaotic. Without a sense of order people often resort to chaos naturally.
As I have mentioned many times in the past, I believe there are two different types of Christians. One group is actually much more agnostic – they really don’t follow the word of Christ. On Sunday they go to church, but Monday through Saturday they don’t actually practice their religion, other than perhaps a prayer before dinner. Also, these people are surprisingly nonchalant with the thought that their best friend or kids might go to hell. That thought should scare the hell out of them, but I often see “well, you’re going to hell then” said so passively. I lived with my (Christian) aunt for awhile and she was more concerned about my safety when I would take long bicycle trips than she was at the thought of me going to hell. These are the just-in-case Christians who are much more unsure of the idea of Christianity and not really believers who are utterly convinced of their faith. I believe a vast majority of Christians fall into this group. The other group of course are the believers.
Also, let’s consider the bible belt. The people in these regions identify heavily with Christianity, but when we look at statistics such as obesity, lack of education, crimes such as rape, the number of illegitimate children, and the divorce rate, these states are the ones which are at the top of the list.
Practicing Christians live longer, commit less crime, do less drugs, and are happier people than atheists.
You say this a lot, but I still have yet to see valid proof from a reputable source. I can easily find sources which say the opposite but I have a feeling they would be rejected by you.
In prisons atheists comprise of about 0.2% of the population, Catholic believers are at the top at 39%. The Journal of Religion and Society released a study that shows that more secular countries have lower crime rates. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Japan, etc have very low crime rates. Secular nations also tend to be more peaceful.
Aside from all of the above:
Some people, such as myself, simply cannot force belief. Yes, Churches absolutely do great things – in fact, when I was 18-19 and living in hotels (as I mentioned earlier), it was a church who helped us get food. My wife and I use to go to food banks and steal things like little things of butter and jelly from the local cafe. One day someone from a local church came by and told us that they offer food to the poor every Saturday, provided you go to their service, which we did.
I’ve talked to many pastors and I’ve been to many church services and I’ve tried to believe it, but there was always a nag inside. I just simply couldn’t believe in God, no matter how much I tried, the belief just wasn’t there. I remember feeling this way even as a very young kid – it always seemed so fake to me. It’s like trying to convince yourself to believe in the Tooth Fairy, it’s just impossible. When I tried to believe it was just that – trying, I just can’t naturally believe in it.
I am open to the idea that there may be something much greater than us, but it’s not the Christian god. This god says he is a just god, but this same god will send you to hell for ETERNITY – not a thousand years, not a million, not a billion, not a googol, but an ETERNITY simply because you didn’t live up to his standard while you were on Earth for your short 70-80 years of life. That is NOT justice. That’s an eternal punishment for a very small ‘crime’.
November 4th, 2012 at 6:46 am
Sorry, lots of screwy grammar above!
November 4th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Snow: “I believe we choose to do good things because we are raised to do good things.”
Yes, undoubtedly at least partially true, but it sort of begs the question. Why would any parent want their children to be worse off than they could otherwise be? And where did the idea come from originally? And why? Most interesting is your concession that people are generally “good.” Why would that be?
Perhaps I should have clarified something. Practicing Christians IN THE USA live longer, commit less crime, do less drugs, and are happier people than others IN THE USA. Citing Sweden and Denmark with their 98% white populations is an example of something else we know to be true: Homogeneous populations commit less crime, and within our own heterogeneous population white people commit less crime. But let’s not dwell on THAT. The main point is irrefutable by the overwhelming weight of scientific studies. Practicing Christians are good for everyone no matter how antagonistic you feel about their beliefs.
Snow: “I am open to the idea that there may be something much greater than us, but it’s not the Christian god.”
Which brings you much closer to Christians that you are aware. So if Christianity isn’t for you, I encourage you to study Buddhism as a possible way to find that purposeful life. The same can be said of Buddhists, which is that practicing Buddhists commit less crime, do less drugs, and are happier people. That makes them good for you too.
November 4th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Nice Reply Patrick,
I have actually considered learning more about Buddhism. My wife has learned a lot from it.
I do agree that overall Christianity has been a good thing for society. I just don’t follow that religion myself.
Regards,
November 4th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Why does anyone think that religion is a necessary component of a puposeful life?
For you, great. For others, perhaps not.
That is the part that makes me crazy, the unending desire to “share” a belief system.
Why a suggestion, no matter how well intended, for someone to pursue something of this nature?
November 4th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Buzz: “Why does anyone think that religion is a necessary component of a purposeful life?”
Any philosophy that puts others before self is not only a necessary component of a purposeful life, but a necessary component of a purposeful society. Atheist religious philosophy holds that you are in the world alone and (mostly) for your own benefit. There is no higher purpose than self interest, and that is a supremely depressing thought that makes it no wonder atheists are less happy people.
It is telling that an atheist would ask “Why a suggestion, no matter how well intended, for someone to pursue something of this nature?” For the same reason I would refer an alcoholic family member to AA. Because it might help them and it cannot hurt them. Atheists have trouble understanding why people would help anyone, which in and of itself makes it an inferior religious philosophy to Christianity or Buddhism.
November 5th, 2012 at 8:42 am
“Why does anyone think that religion is a necessary component of a purposeful life?”
All other components failed to give purpose and meaning to life
November 5th, 2012 at 9:45 am
Atheists have trouble understanding why people would help anyone, which in and of itself makes it an inferior religious philosophy to Christianity or Buddhism.
This is BS.
atheists are less happy people.
This is also BS.
I still have yet to find a reputable source that echos what you are saying. Maybe we should compare more secular nations with more religious nations and see what we can learn from that.
November 5th, 2012 at 10:56 am
“Atheists have trouble understanding why people would help anyone, which in and of itself makes it an inferior religious philosophy to Christianity or Buddhism.”
That statement is at the core of atheist philosophy because there is no higher purpose than self. What you might argue about is whether or not that is a good thing, noting it is quite natural in the animal kingdom where survival of the fit and cunning rules.
Religious people are happier, see:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/152723/Religious-Americans-Enjoy-Higher-Wellbeing.aspx
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1581994/Believers-are-happier-than-atheists.html
http://news.discovery.com/human/religion-happiness-social-bonds.html
http://pewresearch.org/assets/social/pdf/AreWeHappyYet.pdf
November 5th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Referring an alcoholic to AA is because they have a problem.
Not have a spiritual belief system is not a problem.
I consider myself an agnostic because I am certain I don’t know the answers and since I don’t like unsolved mysteries I will never spend one waking moment on seeking such answers.
But I respect others opinion to the point where I never, for a moment, try to have people adopt my views (or lack thereof), but people of religion have an almost uncontrollable desire to “share”.
When my religious friends start, I simply cut them off and ask them to respectfully stop. I am uninterested and I find it disrespectful.
They would not like it if I tried to dissuade them from their core beliefs and rightfully so, all I ask is the same.
It is personal, keep it that way. Again, I know if comes from a good place, but to think it is necessary for happiness, serenity or a good moral code is a somewhat arrogant view.
Many of my friends, good, moral, people, are very content and despite what you may think, find absolutely nothing “missing”.
November 5th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Buzz,
People who are less happy have a problem. Would you not refer counseling services for depression? A lot of people call such services psychobabble, but they ignore the overwhelming weight of evidence that psychologists actually can help some people, just like you want to ignore (for mysterious reasons) the overwhelming evidence that religiousity helps people too.
Nobody said a belief in a higher purpose is “necessary for happiness” but it is clearly more likely to lead there, as the studies clearly show. But for you to insist on ignoring the known benefits of yoga, meditation, or prayer in finding peace are to announce that you are not only ignorant, but willfully so.
November 5th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
The argument I am making is that AA for an alcoholic is certainly a good suggestion.
While I have no belief in chiropractors, if they work, then great, it is the right answer.
In fact, a friend of mine who has had considerable back pain for a long time has gone from chiropractic, to massage, etc., and has ultimately landed at a faith healer.
She asked me what I thought and I replied, “You know I think it is absolute nonsense, but if it works, then again, it is the perfect solution”.
The difference is that people tout religion unsolicited, without the obvious presence of a problem. If a person says they feel empty and is in need of “something” than perhaps that is a proper response, but without prompting, it is presumptuous.
Do you believe that people that have “chosen” to not ascribe to any spiritual belief system are missing something?
I never, for a moment, consider any spiritual issues and many of my friends are the same and “nothing is missing”. Happy, purposeful, content, fulfilled and not looking for any guidance.
I love history, but I prefer it in the Joe Friday format, “just the facts”. No parables or morality lessons.
That is why I am so trouble by cable news networks. It is not their fault, research indicates that people prefer others to examine the news and “tell them what it means” (laziness) and I find that to be scary as most have an agenda even it is primary to increase ratings and as I mentioned before, bombast sells. In the absence of it you have crickets (see CNN).
November 5th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
Buzz: “The argument I am making is that AA for an alcoholic is certainly a good suggestion.”
Are you aware that God is an integral part of the AA steps program? So you would also refer people to a religious program. Good for you, but then why are you arguing about the benefits?
Buzz: “The difference is that people tout religion unsolicited, without the obvious presence of a problem. If a person says they feel empty and is in need of “something” than perhaps that is a proper response, but without prompting, it is presumptuous.”
I was solicited for comment beginning in comment #67. You butted in at the end of the thread challenging why I would dare reply with a good suggestion.
Buzz: “Do you believe that people that have “chosen” to not ascribe to any spiritual belief system are missing something?”
Again, religious people are in the whole happier people as the studies show. Read #74 for a specific example of someone who was missing something.
November 5th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
“Referring an alcoholic to AA is because they have a problem.
Not have a spiritual belief system is not a problem.”
You dont know what you’re talking about.
It is a problem for those trying to recover.
One must not necessarily believe in God but must be held accountable to more than themselves whos own morals and judgement got them where they are.
The ones who can see outside of themselves are the survivors.
With that you have the reason the 12 step program has been applied to many different addictions and compulsive behavior.
Christians are happier and helluvalot more trustworthy than agnostics and Atheists.
Even if skeptics claim that happiness may be built on a false foundation their skepticism is irrelevant if it works for that individual and gives him a life of peace.
Many say Christians are delusional.
What is truly delusional, arrogant to boot, is to think that any government or individual can take away an individuals belief system, or convince these people they are wrong, or to be 100% sure there is nothing greater in an infinite universe.